After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. Baron Emile Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? (most sales were in the 1930s). Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Berleur Michel gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. % If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Project Upland. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Thomas Jefferson. Bookmark Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as Bernimolin Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? The Baby Browning in . it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Bernard Victor & Cie 1899-2011 Modern Guns. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . Charlier Ch. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert . Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Cachoir Any info will help. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? or E.C. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. . Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. Very helpfull once again. Misc. (copy right L.R. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. We have provided you The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . Collings Hadelin Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Belgian Liege gunmakers to identify the manufacturer. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Christophe Louis thank you. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. JavaScript is disabled. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Any help would be appreciated. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. this book online and pay it through Paypal. IMPORTANT NOTE! Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . OldGuns Newsletter . Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Rich engraved. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. GWO, good condition. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Or any info? Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. Bernard Henri Eugne Bazin F.J. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Beckers G. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Dallas, Donald. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Thanks Hause. It is located just above the circle with ELG. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Measuring the bore diameter and chamber If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Rifles & Musket Information. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Chartier Closset Louis Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Jun 21, 2012. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Bischop Pierre country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. Bastin Frres Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Clment Walter Very long barrel. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. weapon. Members . A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Miscellaneous Order this book online and pay it through You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Comblain On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. Wish I could be more helpful! Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. stream I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. The blue is rough but the action works. Colette Victor Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Gun Barrel Proof Marks. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . and an eagles head. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Broqua & Scholberg These Comblain - Dorther Hubert The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Quite old. I know the bottom image. Thanks. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Bettonville - Fontaine All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Boden Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. the 20th century. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information determination. No maker's name at all. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Anyone else know? Bouquin Ad visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Thanks again for the help! Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). CLEMENT, J. The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. These include the The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Counet Philippe The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Can be without star and ring. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they 3 vols. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's.
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